The Fantasy Dominator: If you were a GM (even for one of the lower rung teams) would you even entertain the thought of signing Barry Bonds? Even if it was a one year incentive laden deal and you know you were only doing it to put people in the seats?
The Big Train: That’s a tough one. As a baseball purist, I don’t think he’d have much use in my style of play: Which is to say not relying on power-hitting, and having speed on the basepaths. This would be different if he could still run. From a business standpoint, its also questionable because I can’t see how the fans buy into him—they loved him in San Francisco, partly because he’d been there so long and hadn’t turned into a reprobate until later on.
You also have to factor in Lori Rubinson’s “My jerk” theory…which is to say that the fans love the “jerk” player as long as he is their jerk. While the idea suggests that he’d become a fan favorite, I think the anti-steroid ire is so great, that he wouldn’t win their hearts in less than a season nor would the home runs be that exciting to see. This kills my merchandising and makes you wonder if the money isn’t better spent on signing draft picks.
TalksSoFast: Bonds would fill every seat at every home game. People would go see him just to say: "I saw Barry Bonds play." They would heckle him, boo him, or cheer him. I couldn't care less what they do. As long as they are coming. They Yankees should do it just because they can.
The Big Train: I think someone on ESPN suggested the Yankees the other day…especially because they have the 314 down the right field line (which many people think is even less than that!).
TalksSoFast: It was the PTI guys. The Yankees can say they had the best players of all time play for them: Ruth and Bonds.
The Big Train: …don’t forget A-Rod, Joe D, and Mickey Mantle…
But they didn’t have Walter Johnson, Nolan Ryan, Cy Young, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, Christy Matthewson, or Addie Joss. You could make a case that at least 5 of those guys are among the greatest players ever.
The Fantasy Dominator: You’d also have to put Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Pete Rose, and Ken Griffey in there too.
TalksSoFast: None of those players you guys named are as great as Ruth and Bonds.
The Big Train: Pete Rose is STILL the all-time leader in hits, while being the last (I believe) player-manager in the MLB to this date. He also won World titles with Cincy—AND the Phillies…the latter being the only one in their history.
Cobb was the first prolific hitter in major league history, being Tony Gwynn during the dead-ball era and providing a great face for the game even in its relatively nascent time as a premier professional sport.
I have a tougher time with Williams because his career was shortened, but then too, it was shortened for war service—and like Bob Feller (someone else who would be in this conversation)—he may actually have been as great a home run hitter as some of these other guys.
And was Barry Bonds one of the top 2 before 1997/’98?
Urban Shocker: TalksSoFast, how do you say the two greatest players are Ruth and Bonds, but then argue that Bonds shouldn't get in the Hall?? I just dont understand your logic.
TalksSoFast: Bonds is the greatest player to play next to Ruth, of course. I do not think he should be in the HOF until he can prove he didn't take the juice to help him become the second greatest ever.
Urban Shocker: Again, if you think he didnt do it the "right way", how do you consider him the 2nd best? I still don't understand your logic.
I think you're just throwing out blanket statements, with no real thought about what you are saying.
The Big Train: I’m not sure I can see where TalksSoFast is coming from, but what makes him the greatest? I can see Ruth because he was a good pitcher and great hitter—again, in the dead-ball era. Bonds was considered as a HOFer before the ‘roids, but not one of the Top 2. Bonds is more-or-less a one-dimensional player, so, why are we not talking about Hank Aaron here—he hit the most CLEAN home runs, after all.
...Now that I think about it more, I can realistically see Ruth as the greatest player—because of the pitching.
The Fantasy Dominator: I agree, I was going to argue that Ruth couldn’t be #1 because he was a tub of goo, but then I realized that he still pitched and had a ton of wins, and although Bonds became known as a hitter and hitter alone he was still a base stealer and a good fielder early enough in his career before the juice took its toll.
I wouldn’t put Bonds in the top 6 in baseball history but Ruth is in the top 3.
The Big Train: Who are the other 2?
The Fantasy Dominator: Too early to tell, but I’d have to say A-rod will be up there if he stays healthy, along with Ted Williams.
TalksSoFast: You think A-Rod is better than Ruth? Williams too? Do me a favor and look at Ruth's and Williams numbers, then tell me who you think was better.
The Fantasy Dominator: How many German pilots did Babe Ruth shoot down? How many future astronaut's lives did that tub of goo save?
Much like Bonds, I dislike Babe Ruth for who he was as a person. Ted Williams didn’t mess his drawers while fighting in Korea, but Babe Ruth did while rounding first base.
The Big Train: Lets talk some college sports—look at Indiana with Kelvin Sampson and now FSU’s self-inflicted punishments. Do you think these NCAA recruiting rules are fair to the teams and the schools? How about the players?
Urban Shocker: It is most certainly not fair to the players. Look at Indiana: They could face probation for many years. The players wouldn't be allowed postseason play and such, but they will most likely fire Sampson. He gets to walk away, granted he probably wont get hired anytime soon, but he doesn't have to deal with any of it. Thats where the problem lies...just like with agents not getting penalized if they approach a student athlete but the athlete loses eligibility.
The Big Train: I agree with that, but I want to go further. Why is it the players can’t accept gifts or something to that effect? If I was studying web design in college, I could work part-time for some company, get paid, and get gifts from them. It seems unfair to the players that they’re constrained by this.
Urban Shocker: The players are technically getting paid $30,000 a year for their school tuition. They go on these trips all over the country for nothing, they get meals whenever they want them. They technically get paid. I would agree a small stipend should be given if these players can't have jobs, even though they can work summers, but they should not be allowed gifts. Mind you, these gifts are only given because they are athletes, the normal kid wouldnt get them.
The Big Train: No, these “gifts” are given to them because they are exceptionally good at what they’re doing. If you were in college and did something as well as the athletes did, then you would get benefits as well. Beyond that, “normal students” who do well can get full ride merit scholarships.
The Fantasy Dominator: The players should not get paid for college basketball or football--those greedy kids can wait two years. They should be lucky that they're even given the opportunity to go to college when I bet half of them spell worse than TalksSoFast and a relucky to have a high school education...which they were probably handed by barely having to pick up a pencil.
TalksSoFast: Some of the students that go to these top notch schools are on non-sports full scholarships...being awarded for their acumen in fields such as Math and Science. We don't hear about them receiving these gifts. We don't hear about the Math or Science department being suspended. These student athletes get these gifts because they bring in a substantial amount of money.
Some of the football stadiums hold 100,000+ people, with each buying a ticket, eating and drinking. The only way to fill those seats is to get outstanding athletes and pamper them.
The Big Train: The athletes provide the schools something that few people can do. While the “other kids” can do well and succeed (i.e. the folks at UF who created Gatorade), there would be no Gatorade without the Gators. Plus, these skills are at risk in every practice and in every game—meaning that a school can profit from the students…but if they get injured…the school benefited and what of the player?
At least in the workplace, you generate money for your firm, but they compensate you…and if you don’t like the compensation, go somewhere else. I liken the NCAA to imposing indentured servitude on the players. Heck, the slave masters gave the slaves huts and food!
Urban Shocker: Look at some of the latest stories of gifts given. Reggie Bush received 300K+ while at USC. OJ Mayo gets courtside tickets to an NBA game. I know Marcus Camby while at UMASS got all of this fancy jewelry. The normal kid on an academic ride does not get that.
The Big Train: But that is all related to what they do. If you’re a sports agent and want to curry favor with a potential client, such gifts are necessary. If you’re a recruiter at a law school, you might take a strong recruit to a nice dinner…or maybe the courtside NBA game if the recruit is that strong and the law firm that big. But like TalksSoFast said, you just won’t hear about that.
TalksSoFast: These kids receive guaranteed scholarships. If they get hurt they still have there full ride to that particular school. If they get hurt, though, they better get good grades and find a decent job.
Urban Shocker: The students are compensated Mr. Big Train. They dont need to purchase anything to live normally while in college. They want money for all the extras in life. Just like at your job you can get by on what you get paid, but you would like more so you can have the extras.
The Fantasy Dominator: ...And rarely do you hear of an athlete giving anything back to the school when they cash in.
Is there a Larry Johnson gym at UNLV?
A Carmelo Anthony dormitory at Syracuse Unviersity?
A Shaquille O’neal memorial field on the LSU campus?
Name me 3 players who were a sure shot for a pro football draft first round that careers were ruined by an injury.
The only person I can think of is Willis McGahee and he’s still making millions.
TalksSoFast: Athletes are very giving to their schools. They are often used as recruiting tools. They go to their school practices and speak to the athletes. Schools don't owe anything to the Athlete. The athlete go what they wanted and the school got what they wanted. No gyms need to be named after anyone, auditoriums or buildings.
The Fantasy Dominator: You’re an idiot for thinking that athletes are very giving to their schools. They use the school more than the school uses them and very rarely do they ever say thanks. The kids who are given free rides are probably 10 times more likely to throw money back to the school in donations than the kids who went their for 2 years.
FYI those little red and green lines under the words you are typing signify that you made an error in either grammar or spelling, and commonly it’s the same error that one of these athletes that you are defending would make because they don’t have a 7th grade reading or writing comprehension.
Athletes devote their time to playing their sport, practicing and traveling so they have little time to study. TalksSoFast, what’s your excuse for being an idiot?
TalksSoFast: Your obviously the idiot, Fantasy Dominator. Athletes are known to give their time and name back to the school. You ignorance is just as bad Big Train's. Many Athletes help their schools recruit other Athletes go their schools. How many times do we see athletes at their schools sporting events? How many times do we hear Athletes stating what school they came from or schools stating what famous Athletes have attended their school? So you better believe that these athletes are tied to these schools throughout their careers as soon as they sign that letter of intent in high school.
The Big Train: This isn’t about what the school is exchanging for the play. I am debating the fairness of the athletes being able to gain as much as they can from their skills while in college. I am simply saying that if the math team captain can get a paid internship at Morgan Stanley and be heavily recruited by them with gifts, etc. then the captain of the football team should be able to do the same.
If the non-athletes feel slighted by this, then why don’t they work harder to get more fame, gifts, and the like?
The Big Train: Urban, you promised me hockey!
Urban Shocker: I'll talk hockey all day long. Bring up a topic! I'm shot for ideas on hockey, we can talk about the Rangers lack of effort on the ice, All Star Game, expansion or contraction. You let me know.
The Big Train: Expansion and Contraction. How has it impacted the league? I see teams like Columbus, Minnesota, and Nashville being mediocre and I wonder if all of that was really necessary. I’d say as a non-Hockey fan, that the league might have been hurt by expansion, more so than baseball because at least we have a very established (and stable) minor league system to develop marginal players…while hockey sees leagues created and shuttered fairly often.
Urban Shocker: I disagree with the three cities you mention and your assesment of a lack of a minor league system......
First, Minnesota is the hockey hot bed now, the Stars never should have left. Minnesota clearly needs a team. Some of the sun belt teams shouldn't be there, but they should be placed in cities where hockey means more to the culture. Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix are all questionable locales. Wisconsin should have a team, Canada should have at least 3 more: Hamilton, Winnipeg, and Quebec City.
Second, the league is doing just fine--it may not be on par with the NBA or MLB--but it still is a money making machine. Canada and the Northern US consume hockey more than you think. The NHL made a bad move not signing with EPSN and that has hurt their exposure to people who don't follow the game.
Third, the minor league system is in place. They AHL and i believe one other make up the NHL minor league teams. But there are a multiude of other leagues in this country and Canada. There are 3 Major Junior leagues in Canada and a couple in the US that develop kids up 'til 20 yrs old. There are also all of the European leagues where guys who just cant hack it in the NHL go to play professionally.
What leagues have you seen created and shuttered fairly often? I want names and dates of these leagues, because I dont think there are many.
The Big Train: The International Hockey League (disbanded in 2001), the East Coast Hockey League, all of the leagues listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_ice_hockey_leagues
No question about it, baseball has had this, too. However, the minor league system has been organized and supported by the Major League clubs which creates a defined path for players, while ensuring the viability of those teams.
Why did the North Stars move? And didn’t Atlanta have a team before the Thrashers who played in the Omni?
ok, so more hockey leagues have been formed and disbanded, but if you look at the core leagues and follow the path of most players in the NHL they go through the same "minor league" system.....
Urban Shocker: Big Train, I don't know if you understand the importance of Junior Hockey in Canada and to a lesser extent in the U.S., not to mention college hockey in the U.S. That's the single A, and Double AA equivalent in Hockey. The AHL is the AAA version, with each team being affiliated with an NHL club. Thats the path most guys take. Junior hockey has been so successful in Canada on its own they don't need the NHL to hold their hand the whole way. The structure is definitely there, you just have to know how it usually works. There is definitely a clear path for the guys who can play in the NHL.
These other leagues serve as something for the guys who can't make it in the AHL, but most of these players will never go any further than that.
I don't know why the North Stars moved, something with an arena I think? Atlanta did have a team and they moved to Calgary, so the current team should also move to Canada.
The Big Train: Ok, point taken on the leagues. Part of the issue with Canadian hockey was exchange rates and player salaries: Clubs paid in U.S. Dollars but their income was in CAD. Now that exchange rate spreads have narrowed, that wouldn’t be a big problem—but the issue could, and likely will, return. Also, if there is such a strong overall hockey organization, then why does the NHL not have more of an impact? Enough to get a TV deal with someplace aside from Versus?
Urban Shocker: They could have gotten a deal with ESPN. ESPN made them a lowball offer because they could. Versus offered more money out of the gate, so they took it. I agree this was a bad move. The NHL would do fine if ratings didnt take into account the whole U.S. Cut the U.S. into thirds and that top third will watch and be spending money on it. Unfotunately, the whole country is measured and that kills them from a publicity standpoint. Thats why i say these southern teams need to be moved.
A team in North Dakota would be fine, these fans have nothing else to root for, just like in Buffalo....that would make for more successful franchises.
TV is always gonna be a problem.
The Big Train: But a Major League Sport should have the ability to draw on a National Scale. It does in Canada (different dynamics, yes—but still the case). Golf does this, in spite of its slower-paced nature. Is your answer to value contracts based on segments of the country? If so, how would this actually create more value for the league?
Also, where in North Dakota? Bismarck? And would you have a similar situation as you do with the NFL in Los Angeles, where USC is the “pro” football team (UND would be in this case for hockey)? Would the Wild be the natural rival?
Urban Shocker: Why does a sport have to draw on two different national scales? why does it have to be on the same level revenue wise with the NFL or MLB to get respect? The league as a whole would be better off without the southern fans because they clearly dont help in the revenue category. Fans from more hockey rich communities would better suit the league.
Do you think the NFL or MLB are pushing for franchise in Canada besides the Blue Jays, i dont think so. the NHL should do the same and back away from parts of the U.S. that will never change.
The Big Train: Well, the NFL would be a tough sell because of the CFL. However, baseball had a long presence in Canada and the Expos were a strong franchise until 1994. On the other hand, a big reason why you don’t see that is the aforementioned exchange rate issue. I think that is a big impediment to any sort of International expansion of any existing pro sports league (especially the NBA in Europe as has been talked about). Imagine getting your welfare..oops, I mean revenue sharing, in Dollars but paying salaries in Euros (although, if they took revenue in Euros and paid salaries in Dollars, things would be great!).
Urban Shocker: By two national scales, I meant Canada and the US. Its hugely popular in Canada, why does it have to be as popular in the US. I dont think the NHL needs to be all over the U.S. franchise-wise.
They will return to ESPN when the Versus deal is done. That will get them the exposure to the national audience, but they dont need teams in the South, a place where college sports take precedence over almost all pro sports.
TalksSoFast: I think the American people would rather watch boxing than watch Hockey. Hockey is not that exciting. Not enough goals or action. You can say the same for baseball but baseball has the nice weather, beautiful stadiums and star power that hockey doesn't.
The Big Train: I’m almost prepared to agree with TalksSoFast, except that boxing is in a deep depression—because IT lacks starpower. But I also have to disagree with Lance on his description of the south. Most Major pro sports leagues look for large metropolitan areas with high median incomes to place teams. Cities in the south—even big ones—don’t have this---though they have the ability to successfully support sports.
Thus, you see teams gravitate toward big, older cities—and other cities like Cincinnati and Minneapolis/St. Paul are painted as “small markets.”
TalksSoFast: That is my point Big Train. Boxing is absolutely terrible, no body watched boxing like they did in their prime. But people would rather watch Boxing than hockey. How many people can actually skate? How many people grew up with hockey? How many 'fans" can't name more than 3 people on their own local team? Who won the Stanley cup last year or for that matter, who made the playoffs. I can't tell you when the playoffs start or end. How many teams there are.
The Big Train: Yeah, I don’t remember who won the Stanley Cup last year. Its interesting to debate, though, because think about the NFL’s beginnings: It was primarily an Ohio thing—there was even a team in Massillon! But they managed to grow it throughout the U.S. and together with the AFL built the powerhouse they have today…
…but in my reading of their history, I don’t remember hearing anything like the North-South divide Fantasy Dominator and Urban Shocker are discussing. If you’re taking something new (hockey) to a new area (the south) then market it. Have ice skating at the arena when games aren’t going on. Promote youth hockey. Politic with school boards to get hockey teams at middle- and high schools in counties surrounding teams (and contribute money to get it going).
These are some of what could make it work—though I speak as a devout non-hockey fan.
Urban Shocker: Neither of you are hockey fans, so your arguments are based on what you think would work for the non-hockey fan. Unfortunately they won't work, skating at the local arena in circles is not gonna make you a fan. TalksSoFast, without cheating. name me every NBA or NFL playoff team from last year, you can't do it without looking. If you're not a fan, you won't ever become a fan at this age. Hockey is much more exciting than football or baseball. 60 Minutes of action, unlike the NFL 10 minutes of action, 50 minutes of the clock winding down with nothing happening.
Youth hockey is actually coming along nicely in the southern states, but the overwhelming amount of kids who play football, baseball, and basketball don't have the time or money to play the sport. I've played the game my whole life, I understand the amount of money and facilities needed to play the game correctly. Those other three sports can be played anywhere at anytime, but not hockey. That's one of the barriers to growing the game and the reason I think the NHL needs to retract their teams from those areas at this point.
The Big Train: I’m not going to speak for TalksSoFast, but I’ll say this: While I am approaching this as the non-hockey fan that I am, these strategies come down to business acumen. Why do I want people to skate around the arena? Because I want them to come there, pass by the pro shop, have their kids (or friends) decide to walk in, and maybe stop at the ticket booth. I want people to have a hard time skating around, think about how much skill it must take to play hockey, and go out to watch the games. I want the kids to try the sport—and its existence in the schools aid that.
If you have teams growing hockey in the communities and people being around the game, they’ll get into it. I understand the cost, etc. etc. but you must build the desire—not hope it will grow, and try to convince potential owners to take ANOTHER risk to restore what you might characterize as failed teams.
The league should focus on growing the game in those areas from the grassroots up. Not the other way around. Get the kids to like the game first, don't force it upon parents who have never watched or played, like you guys. When the game has become as popular as it has in other parts of this country, then they can put franchises back in those areas.
The Big Train:
Today's excursion into Sports Talk Excellence is about one of the best Superbowls in recent memory. As a Jets fan, It felt great to see the mighty New England Patriots felled by a Giants team who many of us expected to be nothing more than a transitional 7-9 team, serving only as a bridge between the Erie Accorsi era and the true beginning of the Jerry Reese's time at the helm of Big Blue. Beyond that, more investigation of the Hoodie Man and his video collection only added to the fun.
In a real throwback to history, the Giants have been...well...Giant Killers before, when Kent Graham hit Amani Toomer in 1998 to end the eventual Superbowl Champion Denver Bronco's pursuit of perfection. That Giants team would not make the playoffs, and Kent Graham has since been consigned to the unhappy reaches of Giants fan's minds—with a locker between Ray Handley and Tyrone Wheatley. Toomer, on the other hand, received his first Superbowl ring Sunday—the pinnacle of a long Giants career that has seen great heights and deep valleys.
The day after Mr. Mara's men proved themselves true Champions, the SportsState Patriots fan contingent was predictably tight-lipped. However, they did share some of their thoughts with this lowly Jets fan, so while I kick back and relive the days of Vinny Testaverde, Curtis Martin, Wayne Chrebet, and Tom Tupa, read what we thought and let us know what you think!
The Big Train: We need to talk about yesterday. True, I was happy with the outcome, but I think it was the result of Brady being injured, some uncharacteristically bad Offensive Line play, and an overall well-played game by the Giants.
So, lets hear it!
Oh, and your thoughts on the Spygate Prequel?
Urban Shocker: I think it was the terrible play of the O-line and the failure of the coaching staff to adjust. When the Giants' D-line was all over Brady in the first half, I suggested before the end of the 1st half they go to a no huddle to try to tire out the Giants. It was the only thing they could do to stop the rush and get some momentum. Belichick failed to do that. Brady was fine--I dont want to hear that he was hurt. He absolutely had no time to throw at all, and every QB is gonna look bad when that happens. I also am disappointed in Bill Belichick for not trying the FG in the 1st half. It was 4th and 13 at the 31/32 yard line. They Patriots hadn't been able to do anything offensively, what made him think they were gonna make that????? Try the 48/49 yard field goal. Its indoors, 1st half(not as important as a late 2nd half FG) and Gostowski has the leg. Gostowski has never had to make a pressure kick, gotta let him try one at some point.
I really feel the coaches cost them this game more than anything else.
TheFantasyDominator: I completely agree with Urban Shocker. The Giants Defense is good but they’re not that good. I was upset towards the end of the game (pre-2 minute warning) while the Patriots were driving and the Giants had 2 mysterious injuries on back-to-back plays which allowed their LBs ample time to catch their breath. I think if one of your players goes down and it causes the other team to have to wait you should be assessed a 5 yard penalty.
Matt Light looked like a rookie, and they should strip him of his pro bowl spot.
The Big Train: Brady was impeded by his injury. Those deep passes—like those on the Patriots' last drive—were normally thrown well enough to either Moss’ outside shoulder or directly over him where he could elevate and make the catch. Last night, most of the deep balls were either underthrown or hung up so long that they’d either be intercepted or batted away. It also didn’t help that Josh McDaniels depended more on Maroney to carry the ball rather than screen passes to Kevin Faulk or even letting Faulk carry the ball. Maroney is a tougher back, but Faulk is more elusive, which is what I think they needed against the Giants D—who lived in the New England backfield.
I do agree that NE should have gone for it on an early 4th and 3, but the 50-yard field goal is a non-issue. I think he did the right thing to go for it on the 4th and 13, but with a better play than a poorly-thrown deep out-pattern.
...And all of the Patriots Offensive Linemen looked like rookies.
Urban Shocker: Big Train, the Pats were bad, but how can you say Brady was hurt? The penultimate pass he threw was like 65-70 yards. Look at the tape! The ball landed inside the 10 yard line. He was just throwing up a prayer into double coverage. There wasn't any sort of pattern on that play. They were just hoping they could throw a bomb to their best WR and hope he could snag it out of the air. Every deep ball thrown had a lineman in his face, so if he had time it might have been different. I really don't blame Brady that much for this game.
How is the FG an non-issue??? If they were thinking straight, they would have tried the FG. Would you want your Jets going for it on 4th and 13? no way! In the end it might have been a tie game if they made it.
The Big Train: Yes, he threw the 65-70 yard pass, but he did that all season from the shotgun formation. The accuracy was key because putting it over the outside shoulder made it tough for the defender to either A) Catch up to Moss (or Stallworth) or B) Make any type of play on the ball without either whiffing completely or blatantly interfering with the receiver. So yeah, he heaved it down there, but a healthy Brady is perfectly capable of completing that pass—even under duress.
Now, I just mentioned the shotgun—and that was another issue. The Patriots lived in the shotgun all year, to the point I wondered it we were watching Texas Tech! During the Superbowl, there were a lot of I-sets and too great a reliance on play action. The shotgun made New England's lineman look better than they probably were—now that’s not to say they’re our (Jets) line, but they are human.
As far as the field goal goes, yeah, I want the Jets going for it on 4th and 13 at that point. A 50 yard FG is a very speculative kick, and even if a team only got 10 or 11 yards out of the play you’re in good shape to get a defensive stop and the ball back in good field position. The play they ran saw Brady being very immobile in the pocket—not giving receivers time enough to get off their defenders and just threw the ball to someone who may not have even been an eligible receiver.
Urban Shocker: Big Train, you're an idiot......"but a healthy Brady is perfectly capable of completing that pass—even under duress," Train, either you were hammered or didn't wear you glasses, because on almost every pass he threw, Brady couldn't follow through because he was getting clocked before he could release it properly. Healthy or not it didn't matter-- he had no time.
Yeah, there were not many shotgun sets either. Again, I don't know why. I think Goodell told Belichick to throw the game, so it might take some heat off the League and the Pats with all of this spying stuff. By losing and not going 19-0, I think the spying thing won't get scrutinized as much.
The Big Train: With a few keystrokes, you made Tom Brady into a Marino-style statue quarterback! True, during much of the season, he didn’t have to move…but that’s because he spent so much time in the shotgun. Tom Brady can move around in the pocket and elude the rush—he either didn’t want to do that, or couldn’t. I also don’t buy the time issue, because he’s never been accused of having a slow release. He needed to move and throw the ball more quickly.
As far as the Spygate Prequel goes, Arlen Specter is after that now. Granted, Senator Specter is far too left for me, but remember, he’s a Senator from a state where one of its teams lost to New England in a Superbowl. It’s a low-risk political effort that can make him look good, especially if he gets a good, Conservative challenge in the next primary.
And, why is Goodell so willing to protect the Patriots?
Urban Shocker: Big Train, buy the DVD of the game and watch all the passes you say he could have moved before throwing—he simply couldn't. Break down the film and tell me where he could have moved to! Tom Brady is good at getting away from some pressure and giving himself more time. He's done that when the OL is playing well and the pass rush isn't that good. The OL was terrible and the pass rush was unreal last night.
Roger Goodell is willing to protect the Pats because if more stuff comes out, he's screwed. He will be the Commish who covered up this huge scandal. He won't be respected by the rest of League. He will be scrutinized in the media, just the way baseball has been. Its in his best interest to keep it all quiet if he can. Looks like he won't be able to though.
The Big Train: I agree, he couldn’t get away—but because he is hurt. As much as I hate the West Coast Offense, they should have gone with plays which featured west coast-style short passes to keep the Giants D off-balance and are very difficult routes to jump. That pattern was used during the Patriots' last scoring drive. They were also easy passes for Brady to complete, given his injuries.
If your description of Goddell's plan is true-- then it was a bad plan. The job of a commissioner—as handed down from Baseball’s Kennesaw Mountain Landis—is to preserve the integrity of the game to a fault. This is why he should have been tougher on the Patriots when the original Spygate issue came out. Why take away something (a draft pick) that they can easily get back? A fine for the coach, when he likely won’t have to pay it? It was a relative slap on the wrist, and I think all of this comes because Bob Kraft has a high profile among the owners and may have played a strong role in Roger Goodell’s appointment.
Pete Rozelle dealt with this during his time: Carroll Rosebloom, who owned the Baltimore Colts at the time (and traded them to Robert Irsay in exchange for the L.A. Rams—Rosenbloom's last wife, Georgia Frontiere succeeded him owner of the Rams upon his death) helped get Rozelle into the Commissioner’s chair. However, over time, Rosenbloom turned against him and he had to deal with a very fractious group that included an unhappy Al Davis (who thought HE should be commissioner). Maybe Goodell doesn’t want this, but he can’t be a real leader if he tries to shrink from the issue.
TheFantasyDominator: He’s(Goodell) not protecting the Patriots so much as he’s protecting the NFL, how bad would it look if the Super Bowls are tainted? It’s different from baseball when records and single player reputations are the only things being put up for debate, but now you’re talking about the premier sporting event in this country.
The Big Train:
On September 24, 1957 Sandy Koufax ended a 2-0 victory over the Pittsburgh Pirates, in relief of fellow southpaw Danny McDevitt. After that game, the Brooklyn Dodgers would move to Los Angeles and end a chapter in New York sports history.
Today, we are not here to discuss the actions of Walter O'Malley and Horace Stoneham. We aren't here to pillory Robert Moses--nor are we delving deep into league politics...during a time when the Major Leagues truly were truly different and extraordinary. Today, we are here to talk about Johan Santana and the truly iconic quality he brings to the New York baseball scene.
Since Sandy Koufax left for the left coast, we have seen several great left-handed pitchers in New York: 300 game winners Warren Sphann and Tom Glavine, as well as the long-lived Tommy John and Jerry Koosman. We've had Andy Pettite and Sid Fernandez. We've even had Mike Hampton--back when Mike Hampton actually spent time away from the disabled list!
But now, New York is a contract extension away from becoming the home of a future Hall-of-Fame pitcher, who is durable with a clubhouse presence that will not only aid in the development of younger pitchers like John Maine, Oliver Perez, and Mike Pelfrey. Santana will provide the Mets with 200 quality innings they never got from Tom Glavine and, while being the first pitcher since Dwight Gooden with the ability to give the type of electrifying performance that captivates not just the denizens of Shea Stadium, but the Tri-State Area as a whole.
Of course, here at The SportsState, we heard about this late in our production day, so here is a little bit of the conversation we had about the new Santana era at Shea Stadium (and a few other baseball odds-and-ends):
Urban Shocker: Big Train, first, I would like to respond to PEEJ or Pajama as i'll refer to him in the blog.
Howard is a top 5 power hitter in the game and deserves a monster contract. The NL as a whole does not have hitters as good as the AL. Some are clearly as good, Howard for example is one of them. But for the most part they can't match up, especially when the pitchers hit.
The Big Train: The pitcher hitting is not a rally-killer. What does kill rallies is the inability of many hitters to do anything other than try to hit for power. One commentator said, that a home run is a rally-killer and frequently it is. The NL matches up easily with the AL, simply because—if your hitters can’t take the ball deep, then you have a lot of trouble moving runners over by bunting, the hit-and-run, and the stolen base.
True, World Series victories are a good way to determine which league is better, but the nature of baseball is streaky. Had the Rockies played the Red Sox two weeks earlier, its possible that Boston only wins one game—back when Colorado couldn’t be beaten by anyone, and the Red Sox could barely win a game. We also don’t know how truly deep that World Series winning teams in recent years are, because the series have been so brief.
TalksSoFast: Ryan Howard should get what Manny gets. He hits just as well and plays good defense. To pay him any less would be an insult to him and all the inflated contracts in baseball. If JD Drew can get what he gets, then Howard should be no exception.
The Mets would be loath to overpay, but as we’ve seen with a certain former Boston first baseman, they might do it.
I still maintain that J.D. Drew’s big contract (and the opt-out from LA that led to it) was the result of Scott Boras also representing Dice-K. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, just a sports fan repeating Dan Shaughnessy’s theory—which I happen to find plausible.
TalksSoFast: If the Mets' new stadium is a pitchers park, wouldn't you want more of a defensive first baseman instead of a power hitter? Carlos Delgado is a bum. The Marlins couldn't unload him fast enough. You get Howard because he will sell tickets and fill the seats in your new park. You also try to get Santana for the same reason.
THE BIG TRAIN THEN FINDS OUT THE METS HAVE AGREED IN PRINCIPLE TO ACQUIRE JOHAN SANTANA. HE INFORMS TALKSSOFAST AND THE NEWS SPREADS.
TalksSoFast: Santana is going to dominate the NL. If he can dominate the AL, the NL doesn't stand a chance.
Urban Shocker: Big Train, my point will now be proven about the weaker National League. Santana was awesome in the AL, he will be that much better in the NL.
TalksSoFast: Say it with me Big Train....WORLD.....SERIES!!!!!
The Big Train: WORLD SERIES!!!!!We’re gonna send Shea out with a bang!
TalksSoFast: In the words of Red Sox Nation....I Believe!!!
The Big Train: Well, lets translate that to Met-speak: “Ya Gotta Believe!” (Tug McGraw, Mets lore, etc, etc).
Urban Shocker: Big Train, you realize he still is the only pitcher you have....those other bums will now return to their normal suckiness.
The Big Train: Do you mean the Hall-of-Fame Pedro Martinez? You mean the 2 fifteen-game winners in Oliver Perez and John Maine?
This means we can let Mike Pelfrery have the #5 spot, so he can develop, while seeing the team head for a first place finish in the NL East.
Oh, and did I mention the revamped bullpen, with Matt Wise, Duaner Sanchez, and possibly Ricardo Rincon alongside Heilman, Feliciano, and Wagner to close the door?
Urban Shocker: ...and Santana has never really hit before--he could pull a hammy running out a sac bunt and be the next Pedro (post-Boston).
The Big Train: Actually, you’re thinking of Brian Bannister—and that was on a slide into home plate…
…then Omar traded him for Aimbiorix Burgos, but we don’t care about that anymore, ‘cause we’ve got Johan!
TalksSoFast: Lets hear it for the boys!! I can see it now, Red Sox, Mets. World Series. Johan vs. Dice K in Game 1
The Big Train: Sounds like a 7 game series to me…but I want to face Beckett in Game 1. I want him and Johan to pitch 3 games, and face off for the pivotal Game 7.
It would be almost like 1986 (except we still wouldn’t have anyone as cool as Dr. K).
Urban Shocker: how confident are you in your closer??? earlier you said that Wagner has said both the Braves and Phillies are better......that's not the guy I want closing out games for me. Maine and Perez are just flashes in the pan....now if you still had Kazmir, then I would say you got something there.
The Big Train: Ok, so I did get a bit euphoric with Wagner. His problem is warming up and throwing strikes. During the death-spiral, he took a long time before he was able to settle in and throw strikes—nothing is changed for him, so yeah, I’m worried.Ok, so I did get a bit euphoric with Wagner. His problem is warming up and throwing strikes. During the death-spiral, he took a long time before he was able to settle in and throw strikes—nothing is changed for him, so yeah, I’m worried.
Urban Shocker: I don't know how he can say that Howard doesn't deserve that--he clearly is a top 5 power hitter in the game and based on what other guys are getting paid, his market value is clearly at that level. JD Drew gets $14 mill, so some team would gladly give him 18-20.
Lets also not forget the Yankees, who would be able to get a guy to play 1B and DH, who can hit the longball, and be the guy that Giambi never was.
TalksSoFast: How about the Red Sox unload overrated Youkilis and sign Howard?
The Big Train: If you did that, you would gain a lot of power but lose speed on the basepaths. Also, Youkilis can play third base, so what happens when you’re looking to rest Mike Lowell?
I remember back when the Mets had John Olerud, Mike Piazza, and Robin Ventura—batting 3-4-5. In 1999, these guys were terrific hitters, but putting them on base really made it very difficult to drive runs in because they were so slow. Could you see this happening if your Red Sox had Howard-Ortiz-Ramirez 3-4-5, or something similar?
Urban Shocker: Manny will be gone after this year, so that wouldn't be a problem. The only issue would be in interleague play and of course the World Series. Who would you sit? Ortiz or Howard?
Howard seems more athletic, so maybe you give him some games during Spring Training in the outfield and see how he does. This way, you could put him out there during interleague play and keep his bat in the lineup. Has he ever played any other position, either in the minors or in college/high school?
The Big Train: Its never gonna happen, but I'd rather have howard than a few guys we currently have, more specifically Drew and Varitek (batting).
TalksSoFast: How many more years is Ortiz going to do what he does? I would trade Ortiz and get a more of an everyday first baseman. Howard can run the bases pretty well and can hit as well, or if not better, than Ortiz.
The Big Train: Well, I still can’t understand David Ortiz. Yes, he’s a good hitter, and he is clutch, but why? I still consider him to be a guy that can be “pitched to.” Throw fastballs off-the-plate up and in, and throw soft stuff down-and-away. Yet, he still hits, and hits well.
Howard, on the other hand, is a better hitter with fewer holes despite his early-season slump. However, if you trade Ortiz, where do you send him and what do you get in return?
TalksSoFast: You trade Ortiz for Santana. We would be guaranteed to win the World Series yet again. We would have the best pitching staff in all the land.
The Big Train: No, you wouldn’t be guaranteed to win the World Series yet again, because the Mets will (likely) make the playoffs, and we would be able to offer a pitching staff that is able to compete with yours. Why? We have Pedro Martinez to start, followed by two 15-game winners in Oliver Perez and John Maine. True, that’s nothing compared to Santana and Beckett, but beyond that you have an aging Schilling, a Matsuzaka who is still relatively unproven, and Tim Wakefield.
The Red Sox might win the rematch of ’86, but it would not be either a sweep or a 4-1 victory.
Beyond that, it would be a bad trade, and would Minnesota take it? I can’t say yes.
Urban Shocker: You do have a Pedro, a 12 game winner in 2008…….then 2 guys who won 15 in Quadruple A…they would get hammered in American league. Dice-K won 15 or 16 last year and every team in baseball would rather have him than Perez or Maine.
Mets are gonna be fighting for third place in the East this year, Big Train.
The Big Train:
Dice K: 15W-12L, 4.40 ERA, 25 HR Allowed
John Maine: 15W-10L, 3.91 ERA, 23 HR Allowed
Oliver Perez: 15W-10L, 3.56 ERA, 22 HR Allowed
Dice K has a higher ERA, more HR allowed, and less major league experience than our guys. That means, I expect to
see a drop-off in Matsuzaka this season as more scouting is available and hitters have seen him. Just about the only thing he did better was pitch more innings—and being an “innings eater” isn’t good, unless they are good—sub 4 ERA—innings.
Urban Shocker: You don't think him adjusting to the new culture, length of season, and better hitters had anything to do with his ERA?? I guarantee you his ERA will be at or below 4 this season. Put him in the NL and its 3.50, easy.
The Big Train: Well, lets look at another 26 year-old Japanese pitcher just adjusting to the culture of pitching in the Major Leagues. This guy isn’t obscure, because his name is Hideo Nomo. His first NL season was 1995, during the steroids era, and this is how he fared:
13-6 in 28 Game Starts, had an ERA of…2.54 and allowed 14 Home Runs.And why are we seeing a return of the NL-AL bias again?
Urban Shocker: The AL has much better hitting, its true Phil, stop denying it. So any pitcher will have better numbers in the NL.
And Nomo fell off the face of the earth after that season. the Red Sox will not allow Dice-K to go backwards.
The Big Train: How does the AL have better hitting? If so, does that mean the league is better? I say no. Hitting is 1/4 the game of baseball—pitching and defense comprise a quarter, and manufacturing runs is a quarter, and strategy is the last leg of the stool.
In the AL, there is far less strategy than the NL, far less run manufacturing, and thanks to teams like the Royals and Devil Rays, the pitching is not great either.
Urban Shocker: Look at the All-Star rosters, its not even close The NL need to manufacture runs, because they can't hit normally. They need to steal and then sac bunt because they don't have the players who can get a hit on their own…..oh, and there are at least 3 guaranteed outs/rally killers by having the pitcher hit. That makes it easier.
TalksSoFast: The Super Bowl is next week and you two girls are debating baseball. Big Train is not surprisingly arguing something that makes no sense. The AL is better than the NL. Period, end of story. When the NL wins a World Series game then you can come talk to me.
The Big Train: To me, the current style of baseball is a caricature of real baseball. In the ‘80s and earlier, it was a balanced game—which made it very interesting to watch.
On the other hand, this idea that baseball is nothing but hit-hit-hit-RBI. Some of the most beautiful parts of the game involve the bunt, steal, and the hit-and-run. Would you rather have seen some mediocre player with a big swing hit a home run, or David Wells bunt his way on—the way he did during his first Dodgers start against the Mets last season?
I didn’t like the result, but it was sure cool to watch! On the other hand, another home run from someone like Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz who can’t play defense, and don’t try to, is about as much fun as the nothing week between the Title Games and the week before the Superbowl…WHERE NOTHING HAPPENS.
Urban's vaunted AL teams could not survive in the NL, nor in any pre-DH baseball league.
Urban Shocker: The Red Sox would hit the shoes off of John Maine or Oliver Perez, with or without Ortiz. Unfortunately they will never get the chance to in October because the Mets can't beat the Marlins or Nationals when it counts.
The Big Train: Oh, here we go. The Marlins and Nationals beat Tom Glavine, Guillermo Mota, Brian Lawrence, and similar reprobates. However, those days are behind us, and don’t worry, we’re ready for October. At the very least, we have to keep winning games, because the more we win, the longer Shea Stadium survives.
And if Shea Stadium were a woman, she would be a 10!
Urban Shocker: Yikes!
The Big Train: Now, if The Patriots go 19-0, does that make them the best team ever? Can you make the case that either the ’72 Dolphins or some of the Steel Curtain Steelers teams from the 1970s are better teams—or do the ’07-’08 Patriots take it hands down? TalksSoFast: How can you not give it to the Pats? They have gone through everyone-- the so-called other good teams in the league. The Cowboys, Colts, Chargers, Steelers and the their Superbowl Challengers. I don't think it is a contest.
TalksSoFast: I think it will be a good Superbowl. The Giants are a lot better than people thought. If the field goal kicker didn't miss 3 field goals before hitting the game winner it wouldn't have been as close at the end. The blame for the Packers' loss should go on Brett Favre's shoulders. He made stupid decisions at the end that cost them the game.
The Big Train: I agree that it will be a good Superbowl, but like before, I’m not willing to anoint the Patriots yet. The Giants were able to go up 12 on them before they came back, and I think San Diego’s defense really exposed what can be done to confuse Tom Brady. I’m also going to explicitly say that New England didn’t beat San Diego—SD beat themselves with 3 red zone possessions that didn’t result in Touchdowns. If they do, that’s at least 21 points.
I don’t see the Giants having the same problem—which resulted from Michael Turner and Darren Sproles being in the backfield—as opposed to a heavy dose of Tomlinson, offset by a bit of Michael Turner.
TalksSoFast: Big Train, you have no argument at all. It is actually pretty stupid that we are debating this. Even if the Pats lose the Super Bowl, You can still consider them the greatest team ever. Unfortunately the Super Bowl lost would sting.
The Big Train: Besides, aren’t you a Cowboys fan who should be deploring the overall commercialization of sports or some foolishness like that?
TalksSoFast: I am a huge Cowboys fan, but the Pats beat us too.
The Big Train: Well, at least you got to enjoy 13 games. As a Jets fan, I enjoyed none of them—partly because the Patriots never lost, and because we went 12-4...12 losses against 4 wins.
Can baseball come soon enough?
TalksSoFast: Do you really want baseball to come Big Train? Your Mets didn't exactly have a good year last year.
The Big Train: Omar’s in charge. Santana is on the way. Everything will be great for another year at Shea.
TalksSoFast: Santana will not be traded. It would have happened already if it was going to happen. I think the Tigers are the best team in baseball right now. They made some positive moves in the off-season.
The Big Train: I disagree completely. The last chance for Minnesota to get real value for him is July 31st, and the teams able to offer the best packages which consist of young players that Minny can control long term (Dodgers, Mets, Red Sox, and Yankees) and likely to sign him would be employing those players as cornerstones of playoff runs. Right now, Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera can be replaced, but where to find a starting center fielder at the trading deadline if you’re the Yankees? Do you want to put Johnny Damon in that spot and wreck your defense? No.
If Ellsbury is as good as he’s billed (he might be, but I don’t see it yet), then he should be starting in center field for the Red Sox—and they have a similar problem. Do you then go back to Coco Crisp, who helped win a Championship—but as a subpar player at that position. Can you expect him to deliver again? Not likely since 2007 was the one year in quite some time where he did.
If you’re the Dodgers, and players such as Jonathan Broxton and Matt Kemp are already paying dividends, then why trade them? Again, do you have a viable replacement for the non-pitcher, and if they’re rapidly developing into big-time players, then why deal them?
The only team in it then is…that’s right…My New York Mets. Most of the guys we’d be trading are not major league players except Philip Humber, who can contribute on the mound right now. At this rate, why not get a hand on these guys now, have a chance to see them in Spring Training, maybe get some of them into games early in the season, and start building around Francisco Liriano and Scott Baker to contend from 2009 on?
Urban Shocker: Every time I see any report on Santana, I never hear about the Mets being really involved…..the Sox are always in the "lead", then it’s the Yanks.
Morneau just signed for 1 year 7.5 mil…..he'll be gone next year too.
Also explain to me how the Phillies are only offering Ryan Howard 7 mil a year and he's only asking for $10?????? He's cleary worth $18-20 mill a season.
The Big Train:You never read ESPN.com or Metsblog.com. That’s where the good stuff is.
I think Howard was getting paid $990,000 per year—I seem to remember seeing that when his contract was first renewed. I think there was some article about how he was hoping for a big raise, in part because he was driving an old pickup truck.
He’ll get it after this year, this will probably be a one-year deal at around $8-$8.5 million.
TalksSoFast: Can we stop talking baseball until after the Superbowl? I think the Pats will win but wouldn't be shocked if the G-Men won.
The Big Train: Urban, any views on the Pats and Giants?
Urban Shocker: I really don't see the Giants having a chance in this one. The Pats will be one game away from immortality with the whole world watching. They will come out flying like they did in the early part of the year, asthe conditions will be perfect with no weather to disrupt the passing game. I see them scoring 40+ points….they got 38 last time they played the Giants.
Can Eli keep up on the biggest stage? I don’t think so, not this time.
The Big Train: The weather hasn’t disrupted the passing game. Wes Welker has caught plenty of passes! Doubling Moss has disrupted the big-play passing and the double team is something you’ll see for a while. The Giants play well on the road, they have done well this year in all of these underdog roles, and much of Eli Manning’s problems this season were related to the receivers more so than his decisions.
No Shockey—no problems. He has his own version of Alge Crumpler in Kevin Boss, and some of the other guys (Toomer, Burress, and even David Tryree) are playing much better. Finally, expect Ahmed Bradshaw to get more touches as a strong change-up to Brandon Jacobs, meaning that New York can run it down the Patriots throat more than even Willis McGahee did. The Jints win 41-38.
Urban Shocker: Put you're money where your mouth is Big Train…..I got 100 on the Pats if you want the Geeeeeeeeeeee-men!
The Jags had the best running game in the league and look where that got them.
The Big Train: But the Jags stopped running the ball when the playoffs started, and The Big Train avoids betting money on sports. Something about wearing a Tom Brady jersey around the cafe about a year ago…
Urban Shocker: You guys have to realize Belichick has two weeks to prepare for a team he's already faced this season--against Tom "My face has Frostbite" Coughlin.
The Giants will be overmatched this time.
The Big Train: I am not prepared to buy into the genius of Bill Belichick. As I intimated before, a lot of this is because they can get players such as Welker and Thomas thanks to the salary cap—plus they do have good scouting. Keep in mind, this genius was so bad in Cleveland that “the franchise folded up and left town.” So this game comes down to the Patriots ability to execute, and the Giants need to stick to the running game, double Randy Moss, and avoid the killer Interception.
41-38 NYG. As Howie Rose would say: “Put it in the books!”
Urban Shocker: I'm not prepared to buy into Eli Manning either, but apparently you are. If you truly are buying into manning, then how can you say that about Belichick?
He wasn't a good coach with Cleveland, but has developed into one of the best coaches ever. If you are on the Eli bandwagon, then he clearly sucked when he started and is now a good QB…….its the same comparison.
You're so big on this salary cap thing, because that allows them to get role players. How is that something you can criticize them for??? Because they handled the cap well, you look down on them??????
TalksSoFast: First, I am on the Eli Band Wagon. He beat very good teams on the road. He was poised and confident every game.
Isn't the Salary cap suppose to stop teams from building teams like the Patriots did? The Patriots have built a franchise where players are willing to take a pay cut to play, and are willing to behave themselves. If anything, the Pats are better than the '72 Dolphins for this. Did the '72 Dolphins have a salary cap?
Urban Shocker: Its not like they have a bunch of superstars either. To quote that donkey on the Chargers who ripped into Richard Seymour: "They have 10 good players on that team." The Pats have 2 superstars and only a few other stars. They all just play perfect together in a system created by Belichick.
Big Train, you're salary cap argument is foolish!
The Big Train: No. The Salary Cap gives teams access to players by abrogating the financial advantage which big spenders have over lesser spenders. So, most teams could build a one- or two-year winner, but not a Yankees-style dynasty. That also means good, developed players are constantly available, as opposed to the need to spend large amounts to obtain them and the cycles of available talent that come in a non-salary cap environment. Add to that the fact the Dolphins owner at the time, Joe Robbie, was not very wealthy and later had Larry Csonka signed away by a new football league, in part because of his inability/unwillingness to pay.
Also, you’ll note that I didn’t put my faith in Eli Manning to win the game—just to contribute as part of a team anchored by the run and the good defensive play demonstrated by the Giants after the second game of the season.
Urban is saying New England is a sure bet because the Hoodie Man has the advantage of seeing the Jints again and having two weeks to prepare.
A stark difference.
|
The Big Train: Vinny Testaverde's career stats (from NFL.com): | |||||||||||||||||||
| Season | Team | Passing | Rushing | Fumbles | |||||||||||||||
| G | GS | Comp | Att | Pct | Yds | Avg | TD | Int | Sck | SckY | Rate | Att | Yds | Avg | TD | FUM | Lost | ||
| 2007 | Carolina Panthers | 7 | 6 | 94 | 172 | 54.7 | 952 | 5.5 | 5 | 6 | 9 | 46 | 65.8 | 9 | 22 | 2.4 | 0 | 3 | 1 |
| 2006 | New England Patriots | 3 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 66.7 | 29 | 9.7 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 137.5 | 8 | -8 | -1.0 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 2005 | New York Jets | 6 | 4 | 60 | 106 | 56.6 | 777 | 7.3 | 1 | 6 | 12 | 102 | 59.4 | 7 | 4 | 0.6 | 2 | 8 | 6 |
| 2004 | Dallas Cowboys | 16 | 15 | 297 | 495 | 60.0 | 3,532 | 7.1 | 17 | 20 | 34 | 182 | 76.4 | 21 | 38 | 1.8 | 1 | 8 | 4 |
| 2003 | New York Jets | 7 | 7 | 123 | 198 | 62.1 | 1,385 | 7.0 | 7 | 2 | 6 | 48 | 90.6 | 6 | 17 | 2.8 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| 2002 | New York Jets | 5 | 4 | 54 | 83 | 65.1 | 499 | 6.0 | 3 | 3 | 9 | 62 | 78.3 | 2 | 23 | 11.5 | 0 | 2 | 2 |
| 2001 | New York Jets | 16 | 16 | 260 | 441 | 59.0 | 2,752 | 6.2 | 15 | 14 | 18 | 122 | 75.3 | 31 | 25 | 0.8 | 0 | 12 | 2 |
| 2000 | New York Jets | 16 | 16 | 328 | 590 | 55.6 | 3,732 | 6.3 | 21 | 25 | 13 | 71 | 69.0 | 25 | 32 | 1.3 | 0 | 7 | 5 |
| 1999 | New York Jets | 1 | 1 | 10 | 15 | 66.7 | 96 | 6.4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 78.8 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 1998 | New York Jets | 14 | 13 | 259 | 421 | 61.5 | 3,256 | 7.7 | 29 | 7 | 19 | 140 | 101.6 | 24 | 104 | 4.3 | 1 | 7 | 3 |
| 1997 | Baltimore Ravens | 13 | 13 | 271 | 470 | 57.7 | 2,971 | 6.3 | 18 | 15 | 20 | 129 | 75.9 | 34 | 138 | 4.1 | 0 | 11 | 3 |
| 1996 | Baltimore Ravens | 16 | 16 | 325 | 549 | 59.2 | 4,177 | 7.6 | 33 | 19 | 34 | 270 | 88.7 | 34 | 188 | 5.5 | 2 | 9 | 7 |
| 1995 | Cleveland Browns | 13 | 12 | 241 | 392 | 61.5 | 2,883 | 7.4 | 17 | 10 | 17 | 87 | 87.8 | 18 | 62 | 3.4 | 2 | 4 | 1 |
| 1994 | Cleveland Browns | 14 | 13 | 207 | 376 | 55.1 | 2,575 | 6.8 | 16 | 18 | 12 | 83 | 70.7 | 21 | 37 | 1.8 | 2 | 3 | 2 |
| 1993 | Cleveland Browns | 10 | 6 | 130 | 230 | 56.5 | 1,797 | 7.8 | 14 | 9 | 17 | 101 | 85.7 | 18 | 74 | 4.1 | 0 | 4 | 3 |
| 1992 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 14 | 14 | 206 | 358 | 57.5 | 2,554 | 7.1 | 14 | 16 | 35 | 259 | 74.2 | 36 | 197 | 5.5 | 2 | 4 | 1 |
| 1991 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 13 | 12 | 166 | 326 | 50.9 | 1,994 | 6.1 | 8 | 15 | 35 | 234 | 59.0 | 32 | 101 | 3.2 | 0 | 5 | 0 |
| 1990 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 14 | -- | 203 | 365 | 55.6 | 2,818 | 7.7 | 17 | 18 | 38 | 330 | 75.6 | 38 | 280 | 7.4 | 1 | -- | -- |
| 1989 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 14 | -- | 258 | 480 | 53.8 | 3,133 | 6.5 | 20 | 22 | 38 | 294 | 68.9 | 25 | 139 | 5.6 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 1988 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 15 | -- | 222 | 466 | 47.6 | 3,240 | 7.0 | 13 | 35 | 33 | 292 | 48.8 | 28 | 138 | 4.9 | 1 | -- | -- |
| 1987 | Tampa Bay Buccaneers | 6 | -- | 71 | 165 | 43.0 | 1,081 | 6.6 | 5 | 6 | 18 | 140 | 60.2 | 13 | 50 | 3.8 | 1 | -- | -- |
| TOTAL | 3,787 | 6,701 | 56.5 | 46,233 | 6.9 | 275 | 267 | 417 | 2,992 | 75.0 | 430 | 1,661 | 3.9 | 15 | 88 | 40 | |||
Additional Totals: Games—234. Game Starts: 168. Seasons: 21
Contrasts:
1. Dan Marino: 242 Games, 240 Game Starts, 17 Seasons, 59.4 Comp. Percentage, 61,361 pass yards, 420 TD vs. 252 Int.
2. Roger Staubach: 131 Games, 114 Game Starts, 11 Seasons, 57 Comp. Percentage, 22,700 pass yards, 153 TD vs. 109 Int.
3. Bart Starr: 196 Games, 158 Game Starts, 16 Seasons, 57.4 Comp. Percentage, 24,718 pass yards, 152 TD vs. 138 Int.
4. George Blanda: 340 Games, 109 Game Starts, 26 Seasons, 47.7 Com. Percentage, 26,920 pass yards, 236 TD vs 277 Int. (also served as a kicker and punter)
5. Joe Montana: 192 Games, 162 Game Starts, 15 Seasons, 63.2 Comp. Percentage, 40,551 pass yards, 273 TD vs. 139 Int.
As you can see, Vinny matches up to all of these Hall-of-Famers in every category. When the numbers stack up this way, why is it we can’t see him in the Hall of Fame?
Urban Shocker: 'cause every one of those guys won championships except Marino, and his numbers blow Vinny out of the water.
The Big Train: But you don’t win championships in the NFL by yourself. Dan Marino knows that—the two times Vinny was on a team that wasn’t moribund like the Hugh Culverhouse Bucs, or the ’07 Panthers, he took one team (’98 Jets) to the AFC Title Game and tore his ACL in the ’99 season.
He was a great, Hall-of-Fame QB. Better than Blanda, Starr, or Staubach!
TalksSoFast: Big Train, you better stop now before your ahead. Urban is ruthless when he disagrees with you. He's a numbers guy--that all he wants to see. Its for your own safety!
Urban Shocker: also, I want to see his overall record in each season he played......how many games did he win? you convinently left that out.
The Fantasy Dominator: Not bad. Vagabond Vinny had a +8 TD to INT Ratio and another -48 in the Lost Fumble Category.
Brady’s got +111, not to mention but the big difference is the +3 in the Super Bowl ring category.
Big Train, if Tom Brady Retired today would he be in the Hall of Fame?
TalksSoFast: That is all non-sense you think of Montana, Marino, Starr and Staubach! Vinny certainly does not come to mind. You know what does come to mind? That he played 3 or 4 too many seasons.
The Big Train: Fantasy Dominator, I think you have to put Brady in at this point. To briefly switch sports, we remember how Sandy Koufax had really about only four good seasons—but in those good seasons, he was truly one of the best to play (not just pitch) the game of baseball.
Tom Brady has been a very dominant QB in many different systems with different teams around him. If he was only successful in the West Coast Offense that helped NE win its first two Championships, I’d say he was a product of Weis’ offense, but he’s multi-dimensional and I can’t take anything away from that.
Going back to baseball for another comparison, I have to point to Nolan Ryan. He won 1 World Championship as a lesser contributor to the Mets' 1969 team. Had New England won last year, Vinny would have gotten a ring in the same fashion—would that have sold you?
Urban Shocker: Maybe you should send this question to CBS or Fox. maybe they will read it on the air, and either Shannon Sharpe or Terry Bradshaw can laugh at you uncontrollably.
TalksSoFast: That's ok, Big Train. Send it to ESPN. They think everyone should go in the hall of fame!
The Big Train: Good idea. Maybe Dana Jacobson will invite me on to give my defense in person!
The Fantasy Dominator: The Chargers are going to lose by at least 2 TD’s: I a guarantee it. I am the most cautious person when it comes to making statements of victory because anything can happen, but there is no way that the Patriots won’t win outright. I have never hated a team more than the Chargers. Rivers is a punk, LT is a baby and Merriman is a cheating loser who unlike Rodney Harrison had no reason to take any steroids other than being a degenerate.
I look forward to another session of them whining and complaining about losing to the pats because they think they are the better football team. If they were the better football team last year, prove it this year and beat the Patriots, the Chargers are the same team they were last year, except with Chris Chambers.
The Big Train: How is Merriman’s cheating worse than Rodney Harrison’s? Rodney juiced up because he is a degenerate who wanted to play better in the Superbowl. Is the desire to play better degernate in nature? No—but they both cheated and I look at it the same way.
I like the Chargers because of that arrogance and swagger. I want them to back it up, and I like watching LT run, since I don’t know if we’ll see someone like him for quite some time. Above all, if he’s healthy, he will run the ball down the Patriots’ throat all day, and they won’t be able to stop him.
The Fantasy Dominator: Rodney did it after about 2 or 3 pretty serious injuries and because his body was getting old--but his heart was staying young. He loves this game and wants to play it the way it should be played---with hard nosed, crippling ferocity. He was in the twilight of career and needed an edge to stay in it.
Merriman did it in what his 3rd or 4th season? He was hitting his stride, he wasn’t hurt, wasn’t old, and wasn’t stressing about keeping his job. He did it so he could be better. Look at his stats from this year and compare them to last year when he was juicing and when he wasn’t. There is a big difference.
The Big Train: This from the same guy who killed Roger Clemens over his steroid use? Are you prepared to give Carte Blanche to any older player who wants to keep playing the ability to cheat? Gaylord Perry only threw the spitball because he stressed about staying in the majors and truly wanted to play. Dwight Gooden did cocaine because he was stressing about his tough upbringing in Tampa (this isn’t true, but we’ll argue it).
Officer, I was only doing 110 mph in a 35 mph zone because I’m stressed about getting to work on time. I’m worried about being replaced by a younger worker.
This is a bad argument, but please, I want to hear you justify it.
The Fantasy Dominator: Rodney admitted using HGH (without a positive test) and apologized and stated that he only did so because of the injuries.
Shawne got caught using steroids and tried to cover it up using the whole “I didn’t know the over the counter supplement I bought contained anything illegal” excuse and to this day denies it.
I give Pettite more credit because he admitted his mistake like a man and wants to move on. Clemens is still denying that he took anything and when the truth finally comes out--as it always does--then his entire career will be ruined, and much like Big Mac & and Raffi he won’t be in the HOF on the first vote...if he ever gets in at all.
The Fantasy Dominator: Big Train, you definitely went down two notches by defending Shawne Merriman and Phil “cry me a” Rivers.
The Big Train: Whoa! I’m not defending Merriman. I’m merely pointing out that you guys are giving Harrison a pass, when he’s no less a reprobate than Harrison.
Admit it, you like Harrison ‘cause he’s on your team.
The Fantasy Dominator: I like Harrison because of how he plays and how he man upped and admitted he did a bad thing, he apologized to his teammates.
Merriman is a loser showboater who does his stupid dance, and it didn’t bother me that he did until the Chargers all whined about Ellis Hobbs doing it in the Chargers' locker room after the loss in last year's playoffs. Don’t dish out what you can’t take.
TalksSoFast: I agree with Big Train. The only reason you're giving Harrison a pass and looking the other way is because he wears a Patriots uniform. If he wore a Cowboys, Colts or Jets uniform and did the exact same thing, then you would throw him under the bus. Apology or no apology, he cheated just like Merriman. No matter even if he had good intentions.
The Fantasy Dominator: I’ve given Andy Pettite a pass on it too, so now what’s your point? I respect a man who admits when they made a mistake.
I lost all respect for Roger because he won’t just come out and say sorry I did it and I am ashamed.
3 of my favorite players (Big Mac, Eric Gagne and Clemens) were all caught using HGH, and I dislike them all now because they won’t just own up to it. I’ve never like Pettite, but I do respect him for his admission of guilt. You got any disagreement with what I had to say about my outlook on the difference between cheaters?
TalksSoFast: I disagree with you. You can't excuse and cheater. A cheat is a cheat. Here is a great question for you guys. What would you rather have on your team. A cheater or a quitter? Now take in consideration a cheater will win at any cost, even if that means throwing you under the bus or disgracing himself and the team. Ask Marion Jones and her track team-mates. A quitter will always put his selfish ambitions first.
The Big Train: I can’t make an absolute statement here. Harrison lied. He said he did it to recover from injuries but it was later discovered that he did it before the Superbowl—which lets me posit that he just did it to improve himself for the Superbowl.
Overall, I can understand you rewarding someone who owns up to their wrongdoing (I’m not calling it a mistake, because they intended to do it), but in my mind, you call them a cheater and you move on. Today and in the future, they probably aren’t cheating, but just like when Tim Leary gummed up the ball a few years ago, we said he cheated then moved on with no further malice toward the player’s future exploits.
This is a bit different for past players like Clemens, because they’re asking us to judge them based on their behavior which is tainted by their prolonged cheating. So, if you don’t like Merriman and his dance moves, so be it—but don’t say he’s a real bad cheater because he tried to wiggle out of it, when Harrison did to—but somehow he’s only a slightly-bad cheater because you like him.
Urban Shocker: speaking of 'roids. I think I'm developing a couple of hemorrhoids from listening to all of this hogwash..
The Fantasy Dominator: Urban, What’s your opinion on it? Because I think a player can be forgiven just as easily as an entire 2 decades of love can be wiped away by one statement from a retired US Senator in his early 70’s.
Urban Shocker: I am not here to talk about the past missives I have written, explaining what I think.
I don't care what anybody did, where they did it, or why they did. It didn't and will never affect my life in any way. I continue to watch sports and will forever continue to watch sports regardless of what people do to themselves to further entertain me. I don't care about any player enough to change my opinion of them, and I don't care about records in the "traditional sense" either.
So let them do whatever they want, if it was legal no one would care.
The Big Train: Well, Mr. Shocker, you hit on the essence of sports fandom and why these debates are great. We can be the most outrageous fans of our teams and their players (or outrageous haters as the case may be), debate their acts—and in the end it costs us nothing.
But if you want to let the cheaters off the hook, feel free.
TalksSoFast: I think your both are wrong. These athletes or entertainers, as you may call them, get paid a lot of money. With that money should come some responsibility. If they want the fame, the house, the cars, the girls, and the money--then they should be held accountable for their actions. If that is how you feel Urban, then your arguments we have for any debate are null and void because according to you it doesn't matter. According to you, every athlete should do what ever they please to make them better, to make their team better. Their should be no guidelines outside the lines of the field.
Urban Shocker: It's a friggin game. If the Bruins juiced and they suddenly became fun to watch that's fantastic, because I've gone to some games this year where they suck the house out. Their responsibility is to perform at the highest level for their team and fans. How they get to that level, I don't care.
TalksSoFast: It is just a game in out back yard. It is not just a game when the money that is involved. It is not just a game when a lot of these players are role models for kids. It is not a game when we play fantasy football, baseball or hockey. It is not just a game when we bet $5 or what ever the amount is. Your very wrong you believe this is just a game.
Urban Shocker: It IS a game......its a shame the world has come to a place when parents suck so bad that kids look up to celebrities and feel the need to act like them in every way. So what, Lindsay Lohan fans are gonna be like "let's do coke, 'cause Lohan does it." Come on, raise your kids right and that won't come into play.
The Big Train:
Until yesterday, I had never thought to watch anything on the Golf Channel. To me, golf was a relatively staid sport that--while interesting--was handicapped by the too-soothing music played during broadcasts of the Master's
Tournament. Don't get me wrong, golf is a great sport and hearing the exploits of a historic player like Tiger Woods is today's golf equivalent of watching Christy Mathewson pitch.
Unfortunately for Kelly Tilghman, sports fans, and Americans everywhere, her remark spread all the way to the ears of Al Sharpton who quickly reprised his self-established role as de-facto regulator of all media. Mr. Sharpton commented by saying:
"Lynching is not murder in general. It is not assault in general. It is a specific racial term that this woman should be held accountable for," the reverend said. "What she said is racist. Whether she's a racist -- whether she runs around at night making racist statements -- is immaterial." (New York Times)
True, this is a sports-related blog, and again, Mr. Sharpton has intruded upon the sports-media world (Don Imus' primary station was New York City's WFAN Sports Radio 66 when he called the Rutgers Women's basketball team a bunch of "Nappy Headed Hoes") and I would like to use the opportunity to not only castigate him but help eliminate the cancer of race-baiting that has been foisted upon us by Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and their cohorts. While these individuals might cast themselves as champions of the downtrodden for everything from making sure Ted Cottrell gets yet another undeserved NFL head coaching interview, to helping Tawana Brawley perpetuate a massive fraud upon Greater New York, they are only champions of their own cause to hold power and fame without creating or providing anything tangible to anyone.
Thanks to unwarranted attacks on America and her history by liberals from both inside and outside our borders, a large swath of our population has an irrational fear of their countrymen and Al Sharpton has the ear of that swath. The left has consistently nurtured this fear, hoping to paint someone like Kelly Tilghman as a reprobate who must never be allowed to speak freely--even when such speech is proper and just. The left has also attempted to re-write history, making it seem as if blacks and women were the only people in the history of planet earth who were ever treated poorly. Unfortunately for Mr. Sharpton and the rest of the perpetually guilty left, everyone in the world has descended from a slave. Yes, that's correct--at some point in the history of all cultures, one group has had that sort of overwhelming control of one or more people of another group. The reading of any history book--even one with a left-leaning slant--proves this true.
The left also wants you to believe that America and her citizens are inherently racist because at our founding, slaves counted for Three-Fifths of a person--a seeming unquestionable indictment of our malevolent principles! But lo and behold, within the Three-Fifths compromise laid the ability of those such as Justin Smith Morrill to eventually lead slavery abolition efforts. How? Well, if southern slaves had counted as a full person (as Mr. Sharpton would no-doubt have desired), then slaveholders would have maintained an overwhelming majority in Congress thereby making it impossible to end that institution here. You won't hear that from Al Sharpton, but you will hear it here at The Sports Sate.
Need more? Well, lets look at the practice of lynching. Like killing someone with a gun, knife, blunt object, or your own fists, it was not created as a way of executing black people. It was originally a means to execute British Loyalists (Tories) during the American Revolution. Again, you won't hear this from Al Sharpton, but that won't make it any less true.
All of these machinations have distorted our society into an America where every word--even the most well-meaning or satirical--is parsed, so as to maximize their value to those who gain only by leeching on those who desire and seek to maintain successful lives. This has resulted in an America where far too many people are willing to believe that our government caused the 9/11 Terrorist Attacks, while embracing the cause of radical Islam, despite the overwhelming evil which radical Islamists perpetuate upon anyone except themselves. This has resulted in an America where the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, and Hillary Clintons are held up as leaders while the Ronald Reagans and George W. Bushes have their names sullied, and their accomplishments minimized.
So, today, I want us to recognize Kelly Tilghman as a true American patriot. She grew up with golf, loves golf, and has made herself into a very successful person by following her desires in true American fasion--without the help of Big Government or by the assistance of so-called activists for the oppressed. Ms. Tilghman would most assuredly reside in Ronald Reagan's City Upon a Hill, and serves as a beacon to me about not only what a great country America is and will forever be, but to the heights of which I--as an individual--can rise.
On the other hand, Al Sharpton should be consigned to the scrap heap of unhappy history, along with the memories of Ebbets Field's demolition, Dwight Gooden's cocaine use, and the horribly misplaced notion that America is anything less than the greatest nation ever to exist on the earth.
...and the only way Mr. Sharpton and his fellows can stop these self-evident truths from being told is to lynch me in a back alley.
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TV said:
I don't think you can have serious conversation about football if you are suggesting that Vinnie makes the HOF. read more
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PEEJ said:
Urban Shocker, you can't have it both ways. And i quote."Howard doesn't deserve that--he clearly is a top 5 power... read more
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PEEJ said:
$18-20 mil for Ryan Howard? You'd have to smoke a lot of crack for that one to make sense. read more
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If you wish to make connaitre your sport and your articles, you can join the group SPORTS HERE. Bye. read more
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